digimonfandomcom-20200222-history
Talk:Meiko Mochizuki
DigiDestined We don't know if she's DigiDestined, a Tamer, or just someone holding a Digimon, though, unless I've missed something. 22:13, November 16, 2015 (UTC) :Well, usually when humans are depicted with a Digimon it's a case of partnership, specially in the Adventure universe. As for "Tamer", as far as Adventure is concerned, that term has only been used for stuff related to Ryo Akiyama. Also, A I D U.com/p/4165453703 we now have this poster from the theaters. 02:04, November 18, 2015 (UTC) ::Good lord Meikuumon looks out of place next to the other Digimon. I still really don't think we need to be calling her DigiDestined, though, as we don't know if she was "chosen" like the other kids were. 15:59, November 18, 2015 (UTC) :::Just saw Tri on Crunchyroll and she's got a Adventure Digivice, she's DigiDestined alright. Chimera-gui (talk) 04:29, November 21, 2015 (UTC) Name So, an user just moved the pages without bringing it up on the talk page. Crunchyroll uses "Mochizuki", but it also uses the spelling "Jo", that contradicts the official romanization used by the movie itself. Do we want to say Crunchyroll is not a reliable source for name romanizations? This would affect Meicoomon's article, as we use Crunchyroll as a source for the romanization. 15:21, November 24, 2015 (UTC) :Crunchyroll is localizing the material in its own manner, and as far as I know, was given official purview to do so. Since it's subbing, rather than dubbing, I think it would be secondary to a dub name, but for our purposes it should count as a localized name. Romanizations within the direct canon would overrule the subs. Therefore, since Joe has already recieved a dub name and an in-canon romanization, "Jo" would be merely an "additional name", while "Mochizuki" and "Meicoomon" are the prime localized names (meaning we can still have separate "Japanese names") until we receive a dub. As it stands, "Mochidzuki" is the primary romanization I can find in use for that last name, and I'm fine with "Meicoomon" as it makes the pronunciation clearer than Maicoomon -- once Ma/eicoomon shows up in the DRB, though, we'll go with what it says. 16:41, November 24, 2015 (UTC) ::A romanization like "Mochidzuki" has never appeared in real life, unlike "Mochizuki". An the letter combination "dz" has never been used, unlike "ts". Why would the creators of Digimon Adventure tri be the first ones to do so? CAJH (talk) 21:08, November 24, 2015 (UTC) :::That is completely false. Here's someone using it in a professional context, no otaku involved, before Digimon even started airing: ::::53 K. '''Mochidzuki', A. Sakoda, M. Suzuki, Measurement of the hydrothermal reaction rate of cellulose using novel liquid-phase thermogravimetry, Thermochim. Acta 348 (2000) 69-76.'' ::Crunchyroll's subs use "Meiko Mochizuki". "Mochidzuki" isn't used widely considering づ and ず are homophones in standard Japanese and on top of that they're switched around for each other anyway (in this instance it seems Toei went with an archaic pronunciation of もちづき). Most people around the net are using "Mochizuki". Also, づ isn't "dzu" in wapuro anyway, it's "du".—Ryulong (琉竜) 03:33, November 25, 2015 (UTC) :::Right, Crunchyroll's subs are our "localized name". The "Japanese" name is distinct from that. We also don't pay heed to what most people around the net use, because we want our wiki to be as accurate as possible. In addition, I'm sorry for misspeaking about hepburn, but since G-SANtos has been standardizing all the romaji across the wiki, we are by default using the romanization system he was rolling with, which appears to be "Form B". G-SANtos, if I'm incorrect about which one you're using, let me know. Personally, I prefer using the wapuro variant that WWWJDIC uses, for pretty obvious reasons. 03:51, November 25, 2015 (UTC) :::I had never heard of Wāpuro rōmaji. CAJH (talk) 08:06, November 25, 2015 (UTC) ::::づ is still zu. And Hepburn makes more sense to English speakers than whatever you guys were doing here that I can't even tell what's going on. You guys really went out of your way to figure out how to romanize things. For example, を is never used in katakana to be "wo". If someone needs to make the English sound "Wo" they use ウォ like in "Wars" (ウォーズ Wōzu), but you guys just use the English localized name and the Japanese official English name anyway rather than Hepburn for every other page so why should this be any different? もちづき is "Mochizuki", even though づ is a voiced つ.—Ryulong (琉竜) 08:48, November 25, 2015 (UTC) ::::Mochizuki is the English localized name. We do not have a Japanese official English name yet. "Dzu" exists, as demonstrated by the link above. ::::Currently, G-SANtos is by default in charge of how we romanize things -- contact him and confirm which system he's using. We can write up an MoS for it if it doesn't match a common system. Our goal here is to be consistent, so if it turns out this usage is inconsistent with how we've been doing it elsewhere, I'm all for changing it. Please just wait for consensus to be determined here. 14:36, November 25, 2015 (UTC) :It has been some time I wanted to discuss changing the Wiki's standard to Hepburn or something else, but I ended procrastinating on bringing it up. I didn't expect we would start discussing it over a character article. :Okay, this is what I remember doing: :*The version of wāpuro we have been using when covering characters with no official romanization. Example: Ryouma Mogami, Yuuko Kamishiro. :*Hepburn in the transliteration field when a charater's official romanization or dub name is anglicized Hepburn. Example: Mikey Kudo, Koichi Kimura. Koji Minamoto is also relevant to bring because his dub name is anglicized Hepburn but the official romanization of his first name is wāpuro. :*Anything that uses automatically gets a macron. Example: Kēsuke Tachikawa, Kōta Doumoto, Yūji Musha. :**Because of the virtual using a chōonpu and being named after another character, I'm covering Yuuko's brother as Yūgo Kamishiro. So, this is a special case. :*Hepburn for actual people with no official romanization. Example: KENN, Kensuke Ōta. I think the logic I used was "Well, this is not a fiction topic, so let's do what Wikipedia does". :**When there's an official romanization in an official site, I use the romanization, and then put the Hepburn in the romaji parameter of the nihongo template. Example: Youto Kazama, Yuko Mizutani, Chiho Ohkawa. :*For species titles, I remember using Hepburn for Examon's "Dragon Emperor", but I can't remember why. I still used wāpuro for his Cyber Sleuth-only attacks. :*For locations... I remember using Hepburn for Yodobashi Elementary School, but wāpuro for Tsukishima General High School. With the latter, I was thinking "Well, I still didn't bring up the discussion, so let's go with wāpuro for now", but I don't remember what I was thinking in the former, and it has been about two or three years since that revision. :I also remember not changing Hepburn that was already in use in some pages, but I think I changed some. :Anyway, looking back I admit I haven't been perfectly consistent for things that aren't character or people names. I think this may be the perfect time to discuss changing to Hepburn. :On the topic of Meiko, her name doesn't have an official romanization, but my experience they would use Mochiduki, like [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKfxrEAcP-8&t=43s Miduki from Yumeria here]. I could try to remember other examples (I'm pretty sure I have seen other examples, but this is only one I can remember from the top of my head), but I'm pretty sure I have never seen Japanese people romanize づ as "zu". Wāpuro also uses "du". For Hepburn, both "zu" and "dzu" are acceptable, and I would prefer to use "dzu" as a way to differentiate it from ず. :On the topic of Hepburn, the biggest argument against it seems to be Lanate's "I don't like macrons". Well, I also don't like ignoring diacritics, so anglicized stuff always bugs me, maybe because my language uses dacritics, and seems more like lazyness or some kind of diacritic-phobia derived from the fact English doesn't use diacritics. Personally, I don't think that argument can hold much when also cover other topics that have diacritics on the name like Caio César, the D-Cyber humans (and in the future Battle!! Digimon characters once we can find scans and maybe ask someone to do translations). Heck, JagerDorulumon's page has an Eszett. :I admit that there are some things in Hepburn that I don't like, like ん becoming an "m" before "b" and "p" (despite the fact that Portuguese has the same orthographical rule and it doesn't bother me), or っち being "tchi" instead of "cchi". But I would still prefer to use Hepburn instead of ignoring macrons. :Ryulong, regarding the "wo" thing, を is "wo". What people use for loanwords doesn't matter, the romaji for it is , and it is rarely used outside of being a particle. In fact, the only example I can think of を being used in a word, is "Kaworu" (かをる), a variation of the name "Kaoru", that I have only seen twice. 17:19, November 25, 2015 (UTC) ::"zu" is definitely a possible roanization of づ. Neither side in this argument needs to be claiming things are "impossible" when a quick wikipedia search verifies them as acceptable. ::That being said, it sounds like G-SANtos is trying to stick to the latest Modified Hepburn standards, which now use "zu" instead of "dzu" (therefore, Mochizuki). I'm personally fine with this, as long as he takes responsibility for cleaning up after my romanizations, since I am a dyed-in-the-wool wapuro user and my trying to change that is basically gonna be a crapshoot. However, if possible I would like to wait for the other core editors to chime in, since this decision will affect editing across the wiki. 18:02, November 25, 2015 (UTC) :::Actually, I want the Hepburn version that uses "dzu". Which one is which? 18:05, November 25, 2015 (UTC) ::::The second version (pre-1887), which would also require us to do the following: *エ and ヱ were written as ye (e.g. Yedo) *ズ and ヅ were written as dzu (e.g. kudzu, tsudzuku) *キャ, キョ, and キュ were written as kiya, kiyo and kiu *クヮ was written as kuwa ::::That third one in particular looks like it would make a mess for us. In fairness to Ryulong, the of the phonemes are identical in most Japanese dialects, so if we're picking a pronunciation-based romanization (Hepburn variants) over an exact kana-based romanization (wapuro variants), there's not any real justification for keeping "dzu". 18:08, November 25, 2015 (UTC) :In that case, I would prefer to keep wāpuro, or make a homebrew style if wāpuro forces us to use "du". Personally, I don't see why ず and づ have to be ormanized the same. 18:20, November 25, 2015 (UTC) :::::The closest wapuro to what we're already using would be the one used by IME/WWWJDIC. Please read this. The biggest change is that we would only use macrons if there was a chouonpu. I've also pinged the other core editors so we can get a final decision on how to go forward with this, but I would appreciate if everyone took a look at the romanization rules I've linked. Honestly...we might need to set up an appendix of all the romanizations , and how they would be represented with the systems being discussed (Modified Hepburn, IME-WWWJDIC Wapuro, Wikipedia Wapuro, Traditional Hepburn). They're all legitimate, so the biggest concern is making sure we're consistent and happy with our choice. :::::As a side note, "を" is "o" in Hepburn when used as a particle, but "wo" everywhere else. (I do wish the wikipedia article was consistent, rather than changing rules all the time.) :::::Side note side note, Ryulong, I do appreciate you bringing our inconsistency on this to our attention. 18:47, November 25, 2015 (UTC) ::::::づ is rare and is invariably replaced by ず. The purpose of romanization is providing an approximated pronunciation. Not a transliteration to say how it should be written. All of this should be fine for here, particularly the extended kana charts (which I did help in researching). Wapuro is lazy and doesn't actually help people understand how something should be read.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:34, November 26, 2015 (UTC) ::::::Also, your complaints about ん before B and P is unfounded. ん is n. It only becomes "m" in archaic forms of the system. ボンバー is Bonbā not Bombā.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:38, November 26, 2015 (UTC) :::::::This is a fairly important issue. Is anyone not totally on board with using IME Wapuro, as specified here? If so, G-SANtos, can you start collecting the nihongo/romaji pairs we use throughout the wiki into a forum so we can work on illustrating how each romanization system would differ? 22:29, December 8, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::I'm indifferent to romanization in general aside from a vague dislike of macrons (and the circumflex even more), though I won't oppose them. Lanate (talk) 04:05, December 9, 2015 (UTC) :::::::::So, now that we have an official Japanese romanization for this, are we still discussing the issue? I would like us to come to a definite agreement on which system to use, at the least. 19:46, January 7, 2016 (UTC) ::::::::::I'll reiterate my indifference save for a vague dislike of macrons (which I can overcome) and a more stated dislike of the cirucmflex (which'll take a lot more convincing). Lanate (talk) 20:46, January 8, 2016 (UTC) :I forgot to answer to this. Let's use wapuro, but if, say, "やまだ たろう" is officially romanized as "Taro Yamada", I think we should use for that specific case, and similar ones. :Also, for this article, I think we should use , because I think we should somehow communicate the "zu" is not a ず. 02:27, February 6, 2016 (UTC) ::I guess, but if we have an official Japanese rendition, it's not quite so critical anymore. 03:35, February 6, 2016 (UTC)